A Debate

A FaceBook friend, MP, posted something on his wall regarding teachers. I answered, and soon found myself in a debate with two or three other people, who I don’t know. I’m ‘PBK’ (obviously). Apologies for the formatting. I tried to clean it up.

A little background, Randi Weingarten was the longtime head of the New York teacher’s union, the UFT. She left that job to head the national  American Federation of Teachers, and for those who don’t follow New York politics closely, here is the definition of “rubber room”.

And now, on to me opening up a 64 oz. can of rhetorical whoop-ass.

MP    It seems that Mayor Bloomberg is spending a TON of money to break the teacher's union — it's pathetic that he's focused on HOW to cut teachers instead of trimming the fat elsewhere.

DL    That's so nice to hear! Didn't you know teacher bashing is "in" ? :)

MP    Sadly teacher bashing has always been in despite how much politicians talk about it being important.

            PBK    Break it, how so?

MP     Peter they're sending out slick flyers and taking out ads with their talking points about eliminating seniority. The problem with that daft notion is that if you're a teacher with a track record in a second rate school you'd be pushed out for a new hire in a good school because on paper those kids would have better scores. The fact that he's focused on cutting back any teachers is itself criminal.

PH Why bash the teachers! If I was a younger man I'll burn the board of Ed down!!I have nothing but horror stories dealing with that dysfunctional organization.

BB There was a letter in the Times which said that eliminating seniority was "almost immoral." It's true. What happens to people who have dedicated a long career to teaching, and then get laid off in favor of someone younger? The younger person will cost a hell of a lot less... and it is almost impossible to make solid judgments regarding who is the "best" teacher except in extreme cases.

PBK What a crock of sh*t. How is it different than in any other profession? If teachers want to be called 'professionals', than they need to start being judged like that too. Otherwise, they are assembly-line workers. And if cars turned out they way a lot of their kids did, there would be a whole lot of recalls.

BB Other professions: doctors in other than private practice receive tenure or a form thereof; lawyers in firms would not get "laid off" in favor of a younger person once they have made partner; similarly with architects, and so on.

Peter, you think it is ok to arbitrarily dismiss a 50 year old teacher with 20 years seniority in favor of someone who has been on the job 2-3 years? This is also bad from the schools' point of view -- it is the surest path to guarantee that people do not stay in the profession.

MP EXACTLY. and that is what we see happening in places where they got rid of tenure and seniority rights...such as Wash DC...

PBK     No one is saying 'arbitrarily' but you.

Likewise, 'seniority' - what does that prove today in a job where it's essentially impossible to get fired? All it's shown is you haven't died.
Partnerships are different, because you are an owner then, but they certainly have an 'up-or-out' policy regarding associates.

BB     Moving from associate to partner is a form of "tenure".
By definition, any selection of one teacher over another would have a huge element of arbitrariness to it... except in extreme cases. And in fact elements would arise that are worse than arbitrary: favoritism by school principals in the selection, issues of economics (younger teachers make ... less), and so on.

        Seniority was put in place to avoid precisely these abuses. And tenure was put in place to defend free speech and academic freedom without political or personal interference and/or favoritism. The argument that you should select teachers based on how their students do on some standardized test is tragically, almost hilariously, flawed.

PBK There is no one who defends this but the teacher's union, or those politicians who depend on the delivering votes. Steve Brill showed the hypocrisy on the first page of the NY Times piece.

     Next to Mulgrew was his press aide, Richard Riley. “Suppose you decide that Riley is lazy or incompetent,” I asked Mulgrew. “Should you be able to fire him?” “He’s not a teacher,” Mulgrew responded. “And I need to be able to pick my own person for a job like that.” Then he grinned, adding: “I know where you’re going, but you don’t understand. Teachers are just different.”

     I'm a 100% product of NYC Public schools, and my mom was a schoolteacher. I can think of a half-dozen teaches I knew, who off the top of my head, should not have been in a classroom.

  Was there EVER a teacher Randi Weingarten thought should be fired?

BB     My parents were NYC public school teacers, as is MP's father (not sure about his mother).
I wouldn't cite the Brill article as "objective." And your statement that there is "no one" who defends this except teachers unions and politicians: simply not true. I am neither and I am defending it. MP is neither and he is defending it. There were a large number of letters recently to the Times that defended seniority rights for teachers, including from Education profs and others. Any trade unionist would defend it. Any sensible public school parent would defend it (and many do). and Mulgrew was right, by the way.

  you did not answer my substantive arguments regarding the problems with a more arbitrary system than seniority. what is your alternative? let the principals decide? base it on test scores?

JE What is this "tenure" thing you're talking about? Can I get some of that? Maybe, like, if I work for a client for long enough they have to work with me forever? Sounds like a nice gig. My work won't suffer when you're stuck with me. Honest.

PBK        Arbitrary means 'without rationale'. There can be a variety of criteria used, and maybe seniority should be one of them. It sure as heck shouldn't be the only one.
Trade unionists are fine - but I thought teachers were "professionals" - I guess not.

  And who is the teacher that Weingarten thought should be fired?...
It's as shameful as when the head of the PBA defends the cop who tackled the cyclist in Times Square.
You didn't know any teachers who were terrible? Did you ever ask yourself why they still had their jobs, other than that they wanted to keep them? Apparently you still haven't asked that question of yourself.

MP      Actually Jesse you do have tenure: Based upon your experience you're able to get those larger clients while say a twentysomething kid (who could work longer hours for less $) wouldn't.
Peter how about laying off some police officers and sanitation workers before even touching the teachers?
Also Peter those NYC teachers are underpaid to begin with when you take into account their cost of education (post-grad degree) and what schools outside of NYC are paying. 

    At the end of the day if you want a good city you have to invest in it. That means investing in people as much as keeping up the roads and like.

     Also Peter Bloomberg is spending a TON OF MONEY to promote to promote how he wants to cut a budget. There's something hypocritical about a billionaire trying to figure out which underpaid teachers to sack.

MP Principals unilaterally DO decide on tenure - and can extend probation or discontinue a license - AND it's already arbitrary. Adding test scores to the equation just makes it more ludicrous.

Diane Ravitch defends teacher's unions and she is neither a member nor a politician.

PBK M,
Your comment to Jesse is simply a mis-statement about what 'tenure' means here -which is simply pretty much invulnerability to firing.
FWIW, both cops and fire-persons are laid off, firehouses, closed, but they don't call themselves 'professionals', the way that teachers seek.
I'm all for investing in schools - but that is a separate argument that has little to do with this.
The teachers' union also opposes merit pay - again - a sign that they aren't interested in being evaluated as 'professionals'. They just want to do their time.
While probationary teachers can no doubt be subject to some kind of 'discipline', all a principal can really do is maybe get a teacher out of their school, and pushed on to some other sucker's.

The day Weingarten names for me the teachers who she thinks should be fired, or who are worth more than any other teacher, I'll begin to take her seriously.
Right now, it's no different than the PBA. Defend any cop, no matter how dirty, or stupid - the public be damned -or in this case, the children.
The fact that Bloomberg is a billionaire has what to do with this, exactly? Nothing.

MP     The fact that Bloomberg is spending money to send out flyers instead of say raising money for the schools from private donors shows a real hypocrisy.
Also investing in the schools isn't a separate argument — if you're the mayor that's your call. He's been mayor for quite a bit of time so if there's a shortfall in funding he deserves the credit for that (stop putting it on the teachers). He also made improving schools a campaign issue — and no matter how you cut it, cutting the budget for the schools isn't going to give you an improvement. If he thought that this was such a great idea he should have ran on it and been a bit more honest during campaign season.

PBK     "Cutting the budget for the schools isn't going to give you an improvement" - probably not, but that isn't a natural law. Nor is giving them more money necessarily going to improve things.

   The NYC school budget has more to do with Albany, than the city. And thanks to SEIU, and the incredible pension obligations the state and the city have, it is no surprise there isn't much money to go around.

You want to know what government looks like when it has been 'captured' by UFT/SEIU/TWU - go look at Greece.

      
As for principal's control over teachers, I volunteered for a while at a high school. The principal wants to send the teachers e-mail - sorry - not in the contract that they are required to read it.
Stay an hour past quitting time to learn how to use the computers for the kids? Sorry - you can't make me.

The list goes on and on. Still waiting to hear too the name of the teachers Weingarten wants canned, or for that matter, why anyone can't name a single teacher you know - who lost their job due to incompetence.

BB     certainly Jesse understands the difference between an entrepreneur and a teacher or other professional employee. as an entrepreneur, you have taken on greater risk in exchange for trade-offs: vastly greater potential monetary reward, greater control over your own work life, and so on. Also, in the position of the entrepreneur, you do not have the social reasons that the tenure system developed, which have to do with academic freedom, free speech, protection from political or other types of meddling, etc. As an entrepreneur you have different types of protections and different types of advantages that the society gives you -- for example, capital gains tax advantages, corporate legal protections, and so on. the protections of tenure are relevant to an academic environment.

one important protection that teachers need: teachers grade students. parents like to interfere to get their students the highest possible grades. these protections are not trivial.
Peter, many professionals have unions throughout our society. In NY, even Principals have a union. Engineers working for the city and state have unions. Lawyers working for the city and for public service law firms (legal aid) have unions. Doctors working for public hospitals and other large hospitals, when they are employees, have a union (The Committee of Interns and Residents). Engineers in many large private sector firms belong to unions.

anyone familiar with the history of teaching, especially in NYC, knows how important unions have been to teachers on a number of fronts. these include: 1) pay (teachers were incredibly low paid in NYC prior to receiving their first uni9on contract circa 1960); 2) rights -- these include seniority rights, tenure, rights in the classroom, etc.

I think if you check, the teachers union has agreed over the years to many, many dismissals for incompetence. As I said, when those happened on Randi Weingarten's watch, she had to sign off on them.

  the issue of seniority is a separate issue from the issue of incompetence. your argument is not that teacher A, with 35 years experience, is incompetent. your argument is that teacher A even after 35 years should compete for a position with teacher B, who has 2 years experience. I do indeed consider this immoral and degrading. it would not happen in a law firm or hospital. the extent to which it happens in the private sector is a source of shame to the private sector.

BB    it interests me that so many in the tech industry go in for teacher bashing and union bashing, especially when it comes to teachers unions. i have had terrible teachers but they are not the majority or even close to it. i would be open to weeding out the terrible teachers but it is a terrible mistake to throw the baby -- public education, ..unionization of teachers -- out with the bath water. this is what Diane Ravitch is getting at in her recent writings.

just to be controversial, I would posit that people in the tech industry have a short term view, driven by rapid changes in their industry, that leads them to advocate overly-radical changes in education, a system that inherently moves more slowly. you have to be very careful about things like doing away with tenure and teachers unions and making everything test driven, etc. there are a lot of fads out there now that are not going to do the system any good in the long run.

MP        BI don't know you but I am going to use your arguments when I reach out to my members (of the UFT Chapter at my school) - THANK YOU!!!

BB        you're welcome Claudia.
i thought you might be a teacher. can you say what/where? (if you can't i understand).
can you confirm my assertion regarding the dismissal of NYC teachers for incompetence... and to what extent the union signs off on this? You probably know many situations in your own school -- including where the teachers was "eased out" with the consent of the union. i doubt that teachers appreciate incompetence in their ranks. 

my parents were NYC teachers and were there for the first UFT contract. I am very familiar with the reasons for teacher unionization. it includes protection against political purges. 400 NYC public school teachers were summarily dismissed in during the McCarthy period -- these were many of the best "most competent" teachers.

PBK     B, you say 20 things - and I don't think I support a single one of them - but nothing like a few straw-men to muddy things up.
I'm saying a single thing, and a single thing only - layoffs of teachers should not solely be based on seniority.
Capiche?

BB Peter, obviously you've said more than that "one thing." just look at the thread above. You seem to be questioning the entire basis of teachers unions.
i was answering points made by you and Jesse. "Capiche"?
Claudia seems to be a currently active teacher and she thinks my points are valid.

MP So Peter just to focus on your issue — are you going to base that on test scores? And if you do doesn't the previous teachers that the child had have something to do with that — in fact don't the parents have something to do with that? So might you be sacking a good teacher in a bad school who is doing some good vs. a second rate teacher in a good school? And if you're testing on say something like reading and the students are ESL so they get lower grades is that the fault of the teacher?

PBK No- it's just about the basis of seniority, but I raised the others to show that in fact, the teachers union seems to have a problem with anything that would in fact be performance based, or differentiate teachers upon ability (and no - pays for different levels of academic achievement is not the same thing).
It illustrates to me they are not professionals - I'm a professional. Every single day, I have to show my value, or my ass can get canned and I don't eat.

MP PS As per your Greece argument if you want to look at a true free market where there are no unions you can look at Somalia where are no bureaucrats getting in the way...

BB layoffs of teachers, which as MP noted should not happen anyhow, should be based on the current contract that the teachers are operating under.
the seniority system is overall the fairest system, or at least a big part of the fairest system. It is fine to modify it in various ways. under a collective bargaining system, that is usually done with ... agreement of both parties. that is what is going on right now.
basing layoffs on so-called "merit" as Michael points out gets very very problematic very quickly.

PBK Michael,
It's no doubt not a simple issue. Lots of factors go into things - and is it fair for a doctor that he works in a hospital in a poor neighborhood, and probably sees a lot of people in more dire straits than someone who works at a posh retirement community? Or a salesman who works in a tough territory. What did Alec Baldwin say in Glengarry Glen Ross.. 'yeah, it's a tough job'.
I'd like to see a proposal from the teacher's union as to how to do these evals, rather than just blanket opposition. They only act when they are shamed into it - e.g., the 'rubber rooms'.

BB     Peter says:
<< I'm a professional. Every single day, I have to show my value, or my ass can get canned and I don't eat. >>
An interesting definition of "professional", and one that I am not familiar with. I don't mean to violate your privacy but would you mind telling us what you do?

PBK     No worries. I work in IT for a big bank/brokerage.

BB     Peter, the teachers union has made many suggestions recently on how to incorporate appropriate levels of merit pay. I believe they recently signed what they consider to be a landmark contract in New Haven in this area. But it is not as simplistic as paying a partner in a law firm more because s/he brings in more billings. Teachers have to work collectively. they are not competing against one another.

BB     Peter, if you are threatened with firing every day and you can easily be supplanted by a lower paid worker -- as has been done in IT -- then perhaps you are a perfect candidate for a union, which will give you some more rights on your job. It sounds like you don't have too many.
Sadly, if you and your co-workers did unionize, the bank would likely respond by moving much or all of the operation offshore.

MP     Peter also the NYC school system has been underfunded for years — they sued the state and won over that issue and still haven't been given the funds. Yes money doesn't solve everything but frankly if you're looking to hire the best it helps — and the burbs have had more money to do that for that last 40 years. If you want to take a lesson from the . private sector it's that you can't take shortcuts with pay — and if you want someone w a postgrad education to teach your kids there isn't a real shortcut on that.

BB Ironically, Peter just made the strongest possible argument I can think of for the existence of teachers unions.

PBK Partners have to work collectively too, and even more so, I certainly do. That being said, I work in a place where everyone is ranked against one another. That is pretty standard in most places.
And I just found this on the NEA web site in re New Haven: http://www.nea.org/home/38985.htm

“For the record, NEA policy (Resolution F-10) states clearly that NEA is opposed to the use of merit pay or performance pay compensation systems.”

BB wait a second... you are a "partner" in the brokerage? so how can you be "canned" any single day?

MP Peter didn't those big banks mess up the economy: Talking about "merit pay" in a bailed out industry is just a bit ironic — no? : )

BB     I don't want to start on Wall Street compensation practices, and what they are based on. But we hardly should use them as a model for K-12 education.

PBK     lol - I'm a partner? LOL. No, I'm a peon, in a publicly traded company - but FYI, in a law firm, non-performing partners are routinely forced out. Their shares are bought out.

PBK What I do had absolutely nothing to do with that mess, and I am judged relative to my peers. Likewise, the receptionist at Lehman, no doubt had anything to do with that, but they still lost their job. Such is life. Also, I'm not rated in comparison to traders, etc., but to my co-workers.

BB Peter, it is a very different matter. I can assure you that partners in law firms have quite explicit rights under the system.
If you are a PEON working under the conditions you describe, I would suggest that you need a union and/or other types of basic protections.
And lord help me to understand why people like Peter, who seem to NEED workplace protection, come down so strongly against unionized teachers who HAVE some workplace protection.

BB Peter I am familiar enough with Wall Street IT to know the BS that goes on with these "ratings", including various types of barely-covered up bribery, etc. And there is no way in the world to "rate" every single person in a large IT dept. Maybe at a "gross" level -- 1-5 -- but not "1-60". It ain't a squash ladder.

PBK Well partners have rights, because when they became partners, they 'bought in' to the partnership - they are co-owners, with the other partners. To get them out, you have to buy them out.
I'm an employee, as is a teacher. I'm a professional. My value is based on what I bring every day to the table, not how long I've held the job.

BB Peter says:
<< My value is based on what I bring every day to the table, not how long I've held the job.>>
yes, under cut-throat capitalism, sure -- and the day will come, maybe sooner than you think, when you are out on your ass, because like the fashion models say, there is always someone younger and prettier -- and in your case, cheaper. ... which is a big reason why workers unionized in the first place. because it is immoral when someone has worked hard for 20-25 years to throw him/her "out on their ass" in favor of a young kid. this is Rights of Labor 101, and sadly the lesson has been lost in the last 20 years.

BB I'm dropping out of this thread. thank you, Michael, for starting and hosting it. thank you Peter and I wish you well.

PBK I have no idea about the bribery - but it's pretty simple. There are something like 3 ratings, and it's a bell curve. 'Doesn't meet expectations' 'Meets', 'Exceeds'. The majority of people fall in 'Meets'. The few who get 'Exceed' are promoted. The ones who get 'Doesn't Meet' are fired. It's pretty clear why teachers don't want merit pay, for the same reason they want seniority and ONLY seniority - they want the safety of the job over anything else. Do the kids suffer - tough nuggies.

PBK That's right B- viva la revolucion. Oh please.

PBK You too, B. And I'm sure you're a good teacher, but you know what - there's no way to tell.

BB my last comment: Peter, that is nowhere near the complex and hard-ball rating system you intimated. that is standard corporate BS ratings. everyone "meets" expectations. If the boss wants to get rid of someone, "Doesn't meet." and how often is it fair? 50%? 90%? 25%? who knows? you don't and neither do i. but the worker is afforded few protections.

BB Peter: I'm not a teacher.
<< That's right B- viva la revolucion. Oh please. >>
friggin' ignorant remark.

PBK Sorry re the teacher, but not sorry about the revolution stuff. 'Cutthroat capitalism..' Come on.

            BB Dude, you were the one who said you could be fired at any time for any reason. you said:
<< Every single day, I have to show my value, or my ass can get canned and I don't eat. >>
maybe it's a lot more buddy-buddy than you were portraying it...

PBK Bruce, What you seemingly don't understand is this - me and my co-workers -like- it like this. We want to be evaluated on our merit.

MP I leave for just a half an hour and you folks write a novel's worth of text! You both win, I give up...

Comments

[michelle]

Came across this post totally by accident and had to chime in.
This discussion has so many possible tangents for so many reasons. That said, I'm of the opinion that if teachers are to be called–and treated as–professionals, they should be paid like professionals, and their educational requirements should reflect that as well. The profession would attract more qualified people if it were viewed as a respectable option for talented individuals across a variety of interests rather than low-key job with great benefits and summers off. As things have stood, the union's imperatives are actually a selling point for a profession with few others beyond pure love for the job.

I'm not blaming the teachers, and what I've heard of the NYC administration reminds me of Picasso's Guernica. I realize that this is a very emotional issue and there are many outstanding and dedicated teachers of all ages. But as someone whose teachers (at a "good" suburban school) included a majority of fossilized creatures who had taught my classmates' parents–and, who knows, probably grandparents–and provided young minds with all the inspiration of dryer lint, I'm pretty sure seniority alone isn't worth much as a qualification.